Τρίτη, 6 Ιανουαρίου 2009

BUT WHY ?



Today when i was drinking my coffe outside at my lunch break, i saw a huge group of people walking and protesting something. When i looked at carefully, it was written in the banner that "Bar Association of Istanbul". All advocates wore their barrister's robe and protesting Israel shouting as " Murderer Israel, get away from Palastine"...

It was raining heavily but the group didn't stop their demonstration.

And yesterday night, i came across the same event. My friend and i went to the movie " Transporter 3" and when it finished we were leaving the cinema and we heard the same shouts protesting Israel. Some people were delivering a speech about this blood bath.

I've been in sorrow since a week deep in my heart... I can't stand seeing babies murdered, children lost their families and dreams and old people who pray God to stop this butchery on televisions. And i hate Hamas who uses Palastinien people as a shield to protect themselves.

Those people don't have electricity at their homes, water is limited, they even can't find blankets properly to get warm.

Humanitarian aids pouring from everywhere but those aids, helps don't reach Palastine.

I think this is the "doom" of a nation...

Too bad guys... Too tragic...
But why?

22 σχόλια:

Amel's Realm είπε...

It's so sad and sorrowful to hear about suffering like this. :-((( Sigh...so hard to know why some things happen --- I mean even though you may be able to know the reasons why, but it still doesn't make it right, does it?

Burcu είπε...

Yes you're right Amel.
Maybe sometimes it's not so good to know everything's reason. Maybe we get less upset, right?

Thanks for your visit!

Max είπε...

Hey Burcu,

Excellent question: "But why?"...

Hamas had the opportunity to do something for its nation...but instead it wasted its resources in weapons and in trainning camps...outrageous!
They are the first to disrespect their people (have you seen those roads? When the Israelis left Gaza, unilaterally in 2005, they left a beautiful healthy region...look at it now...it is an embarrassment to force the Palestinians to live in those conditions; particularly when their brothers in the West-Bank are living so much better than they are *nodding*).

The world is so used to demonstrate against Israel that they have become absurd and blind!

I have only one thing to say: Hamas is the responsible entity for the death of hundreds of its own people, not Israel (who is just defending itself).

Another excellent article, darling...congratulations!!

Cheers

angelos είπε...

But Why?

@Max: How can a nation defend itself by bombing a UN School?
Peace doesn't need so "unilateral" point of views..

Max είπε...

Hello Angelos,

"How can a nation defend itself by bombing a UN School?"

How can Gaza claim to be defending its rights by rocketing an Israeli kindergarden? At least in Israel we know that schools, mosques, civilian homes are not used to conceal weapons.

"Peace doesn't need so "unilateral" point of views.."

Hamas doesn't want Peace. Israel has the right to defend itself.
It is good to talk when sitting in Europe and not be subjected to constant rocketing from a neighbouring country. The state of Israel has the duty to defend its citizens.

TeddyBoy είπε...

Yes i'm sure Israel is only defending itself.

Those killed Palestinian babies were a great threat for the peaceful Israeli people..!

angelos είπε...

@Max: None of the parts defends itself. They are fighting, they are fighting with weapons.. Why do you support them?

The word defend sounds so good, but you should use the word attack instead.

Burcu είπε...

Well if you ask my opinion guys; yes Palastinien babies were big threat for Israel in near future (to take revenge) that's why they're killing those babies to delete a nation from map!
I'm sorry to say that but i think Adolf Hitler was not very wrong with his decision about converting them into soap.

(i insist that i'm not nationalist but this is absolutely genocide)

Max είπε...

Hi Angelos!

"None of the parts defends itself. They are fighting, they are fighting with weapons.. Why do you support them?"

Oh, I am sorry...I hadn't understood that you are against the war all together (you were not defending a terrorist group); I apologise again.
I support Israel because it cares more about the Palestinians than Hamas does (a group that doesn't even sit in the peace negotiations).
I do not support Islamic Fundamentalists (which go against the very core of Islam, that means peace), that simply propagate war for the sake of war.
The UN partition plan, of 1947, offered a two state solution (with a Gaza area bigger than the present one, which was at the time under Egyptian control); the Israelis said yes and the Palestinians said "It's all or nothing!"...now, they can't have it all (because the "all" they want was not theirs to begin with. Just because in 70 AC the Jewish people were expelled of their own land, it doesn't mean that the country wasn't theirs).
If Hamas deposes their weapons, forsakes its fundamentalism, recognises Israel (and stops rocketing it), starts investing on the so needed infrastructures, resumes the agricultural activity in Gaza and starts doing the job it was democratically elected for...then I will be more than glad to be proud in one more nation who desires to live in democracy and in peace.

"The word defend sounds so good, but you should use the word attack instead."

Let's not be naïve here: when we defend ourselves it is implicit that an attack will occur.

Angelos...it is a pleasure conversing with you :D!

Max είπε...

Hi Burcu,

"Well if you ask my opinion guys; yes Palastinien babies were big threat for Israel in near future (to take revenge) that's why they're killing those babies to delete a nation from map!"

"delete a nation from map" aren't those the words of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, when referring to Israel?

"I'm sorry to say that but i think Adolf Hitler was not very wrong with his decision about converting them into soap."

Darling, if you were sorry you wouldn't have uttered this absurdity. I didn't know you were anti-Semitic...are you?

"(i insist that i'm not nationalist but this is absolutely genocide)"

Genocide: a word invented by Raphael Lempkin (Jewish), after the WWII, through the fusion of the Greek word "Genos" (= clan, race) and the Latin verb "caedere" (= cut, kill)...meaning "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." and to be considered genocide more than 200,000 people have to be systematically exterminated...after certain symptoms have been identified (such as: classification, symbolisation, dehumanisation, polarisation - hate groups polirising propaganda; preparation...that will eventually lead to extermination and denial) - this is not what is occurring in Gaza.

But if you are worried about fighting genocide you may turn your attention to Sudan and Congo. Or to Iran's plans.

Burcu είπε...

Max,
I didn't know that President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad used those words. This is my personal opinion. And what many people think. Why do you think that they start killing babies and children? Or is there any explanation or reason of attacking a school? Whatever the reason, this is unacceptable.

Thanks
I am neither semitic nor anti-semitic. And did you know that Arabians form the majority of semis?
I can not understand people who refers the one as anti-semitic who speaks about Israel and Israel's politic in critical way! Maybe i am an anti-sionist ha?

I strongly claim that today Israel is the biggest threat to the peace of World being supported by America. And regarding recent years, this is not the first humanity blame of Israel. I still remember Lebanon!
Again whatever the reason Max, this is Genocide. Why should be there a cota to refer it as "genocide"? Do i have to wait them till they murder 200.000 people? And in systematical way ?
Ok then can you tell me what's occuring in Gaza?

Max είπε...

Burcu,

"I didn't know that President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad used those words."

He does use them a lot.

"Why do you think that they start killing babies and children? Or is there any explanation or reason of attacking a school? Whatever the reason, this is unacceptable."

First, from what I read nobody starts killing babies and children (this implies that babies are the number one target, which is not true)...this a highly exacerbated argument.
Second, if children are dying is because Hamas uses them as human shields, so that when they are hit...they can use the incident to make propaganda (and everybody buys it).
Third, infant casualties are a tragedy, no doubt, but if their mothers allow criminals to cowardly make use of them...those mothers are as liable as the criminals.
Fourth, this is a war...and in wars there are collateral damages. The Hamas knows that it has no military power, no infrastructures, no social strategy nor means to protect its people (because it wasted funds in weapons and in the construction of training camps) and yet it insists on provoking Israel...and for what? For nothing. If Hamas has no respect for its co-citizens, Israel loves & respects each and every Israeli (and if you attack one of them, you attack them all). Hamas (part of the sons of Ishmael) makes no effort to know & respect its cousins (the Israelis, sons of Isaac).

"Thanks"

You are welcome, dear.

"I am neither semitic nor anti-semitic. And did you know that Arabians form the majority of semis?"

That is good to know that you are not anti-semitic...after all, it doesn't become an intelligent person.
I have an idea...yes.

"I can not understand people who refers the one as anti-semitic who speaks about Israel and Israel's politic in critical way! Maybe i am an anti-sionist ha?"

A person is entitled to disagree with Israel and its politics, I see no issues there (me, myself and I am highly critical of so many political regimes, in our present times) but once a person says something anti-semitic, and illogical, like "but i think Adolf Hitler was not very wrong with his decision about converting them into soap." I should ask her position before forming an opinion about that person.

"I strongly claim that today Israel is the biggest threat to the peace of World being supported by America. And regarding recent years, this is not the first humanity blame of Israel. I still remember Lebanon!"

How interesting...I suppose the 9/11 was generated by Israel; the war in Sudan was also generated by Israel; the 7/7 & 4/11 attacks in London and Spain respectively were also generated by Israel...
Yes, the discomfort, the fear, the paranoia the Western world is experiencing was also caused by Israel...

We all remember Lebanon under the control of another terrorist group: Hezbollah.

"Do i have to wait them till they murder 200.000 people? And in systematical way ?"

Murder: "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." this sounds like what the Hamas has been doing since forever "with premeditated malice".
Defend: "To make or keep safe from danger, attack, or harm." this is what Israel is doing by attacking Hamas strategic points; it is defending itself from rocket attacks.

"Ok then can you tell me what's occuring in Gaza?"

What is occurring in Gaza is the result of Hamas' thoughtless and irresponsible actions. If they stop attacking Israel, the latter will be more than glad to stop the conflict and send its fatigued soldiers home (where they belong).

Darling, I find our conversation fascinating :D! Thanks!

angelos είπε...

ok.. just stop it.
i repeat, you both, support two parts fighting each other.

just accept that you don' t support wars and end this conversation at this point.

Max είπε...

Hi Angelos,

You are so sweet :)!

I already intended to stop...but you must admit that this was a great conversation lol ;D!

Here's to peace *raising my cup of tea*!

Livingsword είπε...

Interesting conversation here….

Hamas supports and actively works towards the complete and utter destruction of Israel (Ahmadunejab of Iran has also repeatedly called for this and in the past Iranian weapons have been supplied large scale to Hamas). Hamas started attacking Israel with rockets etc. Israel then used its Defence Forces to intervene for the protection of their citizens.

War is extraordinarily ugly. Hamas have shot literally thousands of rockets into Israel, Israelis have died. Israel has a vastly superior military force yet Hamas use women and children as “shields”. It does not help Israel when children die as it convolutes world opinion. It helps Hamas when children die as it knocks down the population of Israel who they want to completely erase and it helps Hamas when Palestinian children die as it affects world opinion. Hamas wants children to die as it aids their cause. There is video from multiple news sources showing Hamas shooting rockets from school grounds, mosques, and private homes…they therefore become part of the battlefield…

Just because Hamas is bad at attacking does not mean they have not tried to kill vast amounts of Israelis…Israel is much better at defending its citizens and clearly cares far more for them than Hamas does for its people…

Neither Israel or Hamas can claim to be wearing the “white hat” as they both often make a mess of things but this situation is at a stalemate unless there is a “game changer” (eventually somebody will seem to have found a way for peace but it will fail, as a matter of fact when it seems that peace has come to Israel and its neighbors count that things in the region will eventually get much worse).

However Hamas needs to be extricated from power yet they were voted in by people that should have recognized that these kinds of events would occur. The Hamas hate for Israel is palpable as it is from much of the Muslim world (echoing Muhammad’s Arab Imperialistic ambitions). Indeed it seems Israel may care more for the Palestinians than does Hamas…I can understand why the Muslim/Arab world is so desperate as its view of the world is collapsing…That being said Israel has made many tragic errors as well..

As per the question of supporting war or not…the military is a form of police force. At times within a nation state the police must use force for the common good/peace. The military also at times must exert force for good/peace. War is horrible and it is also horrible when the police shoot somebody but at times it must be done for the greater good. It is also horrible when governments have the ability to defend themselves but do not….instead they may perpetuate idiocy….such as grabbing a tiger by the tail instead of walking on egg shells…utter folly…

When a nation is attacked they could simply capitulate to the attackers (surrender and allow their people to be killed and/or enslaved by the attackers) so that there is no war. Or they can defend themselves and their people as is their duty as a government requires. So at times war is better than not…in other words there is a time for “just war”….

Personally I love peace. I am a very peaceful person living in a very peaceful nation. Yet we reserve the right to defend ourselves….

Have a nice day….

angelos είπε...

"War is horrible and it is also horrible when the police shoot somebody but at times it must be done for the greater good"

I 'm sorry guys, but you are not in the right blog. I don't know where you live. Maybe you are lucky that you haven' t experienced any war yet. You 're trying to speak on behalf of others, living thousands of kilometres away.
You say war is horrible, but bla bla bla. NO..

WAR IS HORRIBLE FULLSTOP.

Livingsword είπε...

Hi Angelos…nice to meet you….

You are very welcome to your opinion, I for one am thankful to those who have risked and/or lost their lives to protect my free speech…

Perhaps you are presuming a lot when you think that those commenting here have no experience in these kinds of situations…presuming that we have not lost loved ones and friends in these kinds of situations…or been in danger of such violence ourselves…

Is it justifiable for police to use force to protect innocent citizens?

Was it justifiable for the Allies to use force against the Axis?

angelos είπε...

any force using weapons is reprehensible. not for you?

Livingsword είπε...

Hi Angelos,

Ok so you would allow for force as long as it does not use a weapon?

I find it reprehensible if a police officer were to see a person perpetrating violence upon a citizen and not use force to aid the victim if need be. If the attacker is using large scale weapons to attack the citizen then more force is justifiable indeed the police have the right and responsibility to use sufficient force to aid the citizen.

The rights and responsibilities are not the same for a nation state as for an individual as the nation state has the responsibility of safe guarding its citizens it is given more power to do so.

Max είπε...

Hello Livingsword,

I can't help but to congratulate you for this extremely well presented case. I wonder if you are an attorney?

"Just because Hamas is bad at attacking does not mean they have not tried to kill vast amounts of Israelis…Israel is much better at defending its citizens and clearly cares far more for them than Hamas does for its people…"

Hear, Hear! If Hamas had a good strategic plan and the military power that Israel has, it can be said that they'd try to annihilate Israel (thus bringing into reality President Ahmadinejad's dream).

"I can understand why the Muslim/Arab world is so desperate as its view of the world is collapsing…"

This makes utter sense...what, do you think, is contributing to that collapse?

"the military is a form of police force. At times within a nation state the police must use force for the common good/peace. The military also at times must exert force for good/peace."

Good/peace and order. Do not forget order (a crucial ingredient for democracy and development)

"When a nation is attacked they could simply capitulate to the attackers (surrender and allow their people to be killed and/or enslaved by the attackers) so that there is no war. Or they can defend themselves and their people as is their duty as a government requires."

I like pacifists...I like the way they see life as a big rainbow; whereas us...the cynical realistics...understand that in order to have peace war must be done. And we remember how our nations were built - under fire, blood and sacrifice. Yet here we are: civilised people who play by the rule of law.

Cheers

Livingsword είπε...

Hello Max….

“I can't help but to congratulate you for this extremely well presented case. I wonder if you are an attorney?”

- Why thank you…an attorney…no need to get nasty now..LOL

LS="Just because Hamas is bad at attacking does not mean they have not tried to kill vast amounts of Israelis…Israel is much better at defending its citizens and clearly cares far more for them than Hamas does for its people…"

Max=Hear, Hear! If Hamas had a good strategic plan and the military power that Israel has, it can be said that they'd try to annihilate Israel (thus bringing into reality President Ahmadinejad's dream).

- Of this there is no doubt…

LS="I can understand why the Muslim/Arab world is so desperate as its view of the world is collapsing…"

Max=This makes utter sense...what, do you think, is contributing to that collapse?

- :) Islamic culture is doomed by its own system. Every human devised system has its flaws and Islam is no exception. Muhammad created an ingenious imperialistic empire building scheme (however it would have done better if it instead followed the Wal-Mart strategy of service). Yet the rules that are needed to bind Islam together constrict creativity, build negative pride and misdiagnose the human condition. It cannot move successfully forward as the linkage of religion and politics it provides is a train wreck. We are watching this train wreck on TV or in person in slow motion over the years. How is it that all of these oil producing nations are such losers? Not the people but the system, I actually love the people but the system they are living with is horrible. If the Japanese lived in Saudi Arabia or Iran those places would be global superpowers that everybody would want to immigrate to instead of repositories of hate perpetuating imperialistic ambitions that give birth to poverty stricken cultural power projection…Islam is in its death throws much as the Roman Empire was at its end when people didn’t recognize it. The more they feel the need to apply terror, hate and violence it shows how bankrupt they are. If their system was the best then its ideas would win the day…instead they are suffering still birth…As their people see the freedom of the west the more quickly their system is collapsing…but hopefully those that are rejecting this imperialistic hate will be able to help their people from within...I wish nothing but the best for those trapped within that system…

LS="the military is a form of police force. At times within a nation state the police must use force for the common good/peace. The military also at times must exert force for good/peace."

Max=Good/peace and order. Do not forget order (a crucial ingredient for democracy and development)

- Peace and order are essential for the health of any society…governments must do their best to keep their people safe with as little intervention in peoples freedoms as possible. Communities of free individuals can be creatively dynamic in ways that despotic cowardly controlling systems cannot be.

LS="When a nation is attacked they could simply capitulate to the attackers (surrender and allow their people to be killed and/or enslaved by the attackers) so that there is no war. Or they can defend themselves and their people as is their duty as a government requires."

Max=I like pacifists...I like the way they see life as a big rainbow; whereas us...the cynical realistics...understand that in order to have peace war must be done. And we remember how our nations were built - under fire, blood and sacrifice. Yet here we are: civilised people who play by the rule of law.

- Will a pacifist intervene to stop a rape in an ally? It is one thing to say you will not harm another (which is good) but it is another to stand by and watch evil win the day (which then of course perpetuates evil and blood is then on the hands of the “pacifist”). One need not look any further than the schoolyard. The bully picks on you. You ask them to stop. They then push you around even more. If you don’t stand up to them they will own your lunch. Now the bullying should never have happened but with human nature it is inevitable. Not everybody will listen to talk. If we do not stand up as free people in community we will all end up in chains…When we look at nations that control freedom of speech it is a good indicator of how feeble and weak they are. If they are strong then no matter the mere exchange of ideas people will support the system because of its ideas and the benefits those ideas provide…However if one is chained to a system that is collapsing into dust anarchy is salivating…The question is will people see the demise of the system in time to prevent being eaten by anarchy and instead being fed by democracy and freedom…

Very interesting talking with you!

You are clearly a very erudite and sophisticated person…

Max είπε...

Hello Livingsword!

"- Why thank you…an attorney…no need to get nasty now..LOL"

LOL LOL LOL *nodding*....it was not my intention to get nasty, sorry LOL...

"- :) Islamic culture is doomed by its own system. Every human devised system has its flaws and Islam is no exception. Muhammad created an ingenious imperialistic empire building scheme (however it would have done better if it instead followed the Wal-Mart strategy of service)."

Thank you for your comprehensive reply *bowing*! I see that you have a sharp sense of humour...continuing...

"Yet the rules that are needed to bind Islam together constrict creativity, build negative pride and misdiagnose the human condition."

As impossible as it might seem: I agree with you.

"It cannot move successfully forward as the linkage of religion and politics it provides is a train wreck."

True. Politics and religion are not to walk hand-in-hand (they should have learned from the European history - what a mess it was). One thing is profane and the other is sacred...they are antithetical.

"How is it that all of these oil producing nations are such losers? Not the people but the system, I actually love the people but the system they are living with is horrible."

True. I also love the people, but their system is not only horrid but it also neighbours the absurd (it has stopped in time; it has not evolved when it comes to human interaction).

"The more they feel the need to apply terror, hate and violence it shows how bankrupt they are."

I utterly agree with you. For a system that speaks of God so much, it seems to militate against it...doesn't it? To apply terror, to incite hate and violence is to go against God.

"…but hopefully those that are rejecting this imperialistic hate will be able to help their people from within...I wish nothing but the best for those trapped within that system…"

Amen to that, Livingsword! I pray for a revolution within the Islamic world; the trapped people shall be set free.

"- Peace and order are essential for the health of any society…governments must do their best to keep their people safe with as little intervention in peoples freedoms as possible. Communities of free individuals can be creatively dynamic in ways that despotic cowardly controlling systems cannot be."

Yes. Absolutely!! As I said, they should learn from our European stark past.

"- Will a pacifist intervene to stop a rape in an ally? It is one thing to say you will not harm another (which is good) but it is another to stand by and watch evil win the day (which then of course perpetuates evil and blood is then on the hands of the “pacifist”)."

Well, in order to stop a rape (whether in an ally or wherever) one must be ready to beat the bloody hell out of the rapist (therefore some level of violence will be applied). In order to stop any kind of injustice, violence (be it physical or psychological) may be needed...look how we all got our freedoms and liberties.

"One need not look any further than the schoolyard. The bully picks on you. You ask them to stop. They then push you around even more. If you don’t stand up to them they will own your lunch. Now the bullying should never have happened but with human nature it is inevitable."

Excellent example! Of course, I never experienced this...since I beat the s*** out a bully once, and that was it.

"Not everybody will listen to talk. If we do not stand up as free people in community we will all end up in chains…When we look at nations that control freedom of speech it is a good indicator of how feeble and weak they are."

True, not always diplomacy, by itself, works.
Censorship is the beginning of the crimes against Humanity. Once a system starts controlling freedom of speech, you may bet that the chain of crimes against Humans will start...

"However if one is chained to a system that is collapsing into dust anarchy is salivating…"

True. And anarchy is not good either.

"The question is will people see the demise of the system in time to prevent being eaten by anarchy and instead being fed by democracy and freedom…"

It is an excellent question...and all we can do is to hope that they will!

"Very interesting talking with you!"

Livingsword, thank you *bowing*! I find you to be a rather interesting and intelligent person as well!

"You are clearly a very erudite and sophisticated person…"

You are too kind. Likewise *bowing*!

Thank you so much for this outstanding conversation!